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Post by Mlle Bienvenu on Dec 11, 2004 21:57:42 GMT -5
HP and the Tarot I really should be studying right now, but I was at the book store browsing the psychology section and I came across a book on Jung and his studies on Alchemy's symbolic value. (I wanted the book, but alas, at 35 dollars for a paperback, it was too rich for my blood...) this got me to thinking about the tarot deck, as Jung also did some studies on that as well. And this line of thought led me, eventually as all things seem to do, to Harry Potter. Lately, my Potter musings have been on sevens and I notcied how there were 21 cards in the major arcana (the archetype cards) plus one unnumbered extra, so I thought I'd try to break up the cards in groups of three with one group of four cards. the unnumberd card is the fool, however, when i did it out that way, things didn't seem right, so I decided to start counting with the fool (it is the first card in the deck) and leave the World card as the unnumbered card as I figure the world card is kind of an all-encompassing card. anyway. Before you think the JKR reads tarot cards and tea leaves, and lives in a housefull of incense like Professor Trelawney, it has to be said that there's nothing remotely magical, or even very surprising, about a tarot deck, it is simply a deck of cards which depict another symbolic system that tells the same story everyone has been telling for thousands of years. It is the same as Campbell's Hero's Journey which is the same as Alchemical processes, which is the same as Maslowe's Heirarchy of Needs, which is the steps to self-actualization, which is something that most people tend to have a deep rooted desire to seek out. So when a tarot deck, an epic poem, or a children's book series mimicks back to them their own deep rooted desires, they become very popular, very quickly. : gets off soap box : Anyway, here's the breakdown. Book One - The book of Beginings and possibilities, the magical world is still magical for Harry. The Fool The Magician The High Priestess Book TwoThe Empress The Emperor The Hierophant Book Three The Lovers (I prefer Love, rather than Lovers myself, I find it's got less connotations of ... worldlyness to it and can be taken to mean a broader variety of things) The Chariot Strength Book Four - a book about justice (crouch Sr and what he does, Snape's DE'ness In this book we are introduced to both DE's and Aurors. etc) abouth things you can't have anticipated (The triwizard cup's portkeyness, and Cedric's death) I can't recall what the Hermit means, bt I think I had it down in my list as represented by Snape for some reason...I think because the hermit is a bit of a loner....must look it up... The Hermit Wheel of Fortune Justice Book Five - A book about waiting, about controlling your emotions and of course about death (with Sirius and all, and the death room) The Hanged Man Death Temperance Book six - JKR said we were getting a new minister, I'd say this would be the book to do it in, as the Tower representss established ideas being turned on their ear. In my Tarot deck, I'm going to represent this card as the ruined Fountain of Magical Bretherin. (unless, of course, book six gives me better examples) The Devil The Tower The Star Book Seven - The book of final reckoning, I suppose the moon and the sun...opposites and a final judgement or sorting out, I guess. The Moon The Sun Judgement The World I plan on commenting on each of these, giving a brief synopses of each card and how they fit in with each book, but i really should get back to studying for finals  Anyway, food for thought... if you know the meanings, or can look them up yourself, you'll probably see where I was going with this....like I said, I'll add stuff later on when I need another break :-) |
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Post by Big Brother on Dec 11, 2004 22:29:33 GMT -5
Well, hello, Jung Lovers!
(Sorry, just had to do that...)
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Post by Lolua on Dec 11, 2004 23:20:53 GMT -5
This is a really interesting idea, Mlle.  I'll let you work out how HP and the tarot both relate to Campbell, Jung, and Maslowe, but I'll be commenting and adding supplementary materials. To start us off, I'll link to some HP Tarot Deck illustrations (including yours) and discuss some of the problems inherent in that direct relationship. Then I'll try to keep you supplied with the texts you had sent to me on tarot meanings, in case you or anyone else wanted to use them as a basis for interpretation. Anyway, there are many problems with trying to match a tarot card or suit to some facet of the Harry Potter universe. It would be much less arbitrary to do so if J.K. Rowling actually was a frequent tarot-user, and it would be dead easy to get combinations that worked if she'd based Harry's life on the tarot itself instead of on folklore and the hero's journey in general. When people assign aspects of HP to a tarot card, they generally try to match its meaning to some character or event. For example, if the meaning of the tarot card has to do with teamwork, then the Marauders or the Trio might be pictured on the card. Some HP tarot artists choose to focus on different aspects of the cards than others might, as can be seen with card #1, The Magician, below. In addition to the Major Arcana, cards 0 to 21, the main focus of this thread, there are four suits (like in regular playing cards) of the Minor Arcana. In ordinary tarot, the four suits ate Swords, Wands, Cups, and Pentacles. Many HP Tarot artists *cougharbitrarilycough* assign a Hogwarts House to each suit. Others choose instead to focus on the individual meanings of the cards within each suit, rather than calling cups "Hufflepuff," then realizing that we don't know enough about Hufflepuff to fill up the cards. But I digress. Anyway, in helping Mlle research her own HP tarot deck, I came across a few other related but by no means identical tarots made by other HP fan artists. I enjoy the work of Laura Freeman, and the range of interpretations within the three tarots she has worked on, either as planner or hired artist, shows that there can be no definitive pairing of HP aspect and tarot meaning. So, without further ado, I present, in manageable installments (I have a life, too, you know ), an overview of what fan artists have done with the tarot deck and the world of Harry Potter. Chosen Images| Card | Mlle's | LF's Old | LF's New | PadfootMK's | | 0. The Fool | Harry going off to Hogwarts | Harry, fresh off the Hogwarts express | Harry Potter (The New Student) | Harry | | 1. The Magician | Salazar Slytherin | Fred and George Weasley | Fred and George Weasley (The Entrepeneurs) | Moody | | 2. The High Priestess | Rowena Ravenclaw | Fawkes | Luna Lovegood (The Believer) | Fawkes |
***** N. B. Strikethrough text ( like this) indicates that the image for the card has not been completed or does not seem to exist. Mlle Bienvenu's Tarot Deckmllebienvenu.deviantart.com/gallery/0. www.deviantart.com/deviation/6429145/1. www.deviantart.com/deviation/6429217/2. www.deviantart.com/deviation/6429298/Laura Freeman's Old Tarot Deckwww.nasubionna.net/hp/oldtarotb.html0. www.nasubionna.net/hp/tarot/fool.html2. www.nasubionna.net/hp/tarot/priestess.htmlLaura Freeman's New Tarot Deckwww.nasubionna.net/tarot/2. www.nasubionna.net/tarot/believer.htmlPadfootMK's Tarot Deck, Illustrated by Laura Freeman www.qaimlyn.com/padfootmk/tarot.htm0. www.qaimlyn.com/padfootmk/fool.jpg1. www.qaimlyn.com/padfootmk/MOODY.jpg2. www.qaimlyn.com/padfootmk/FAWKES.jpg |
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Post by Lolua on Dec 12, 2004 0:26:08 GMT -5
So, before you start yelling at me for knowing way too much about tarot, let me explain something. I don’t think that the tarot spells out my future any more than the daily horoscopes in the newspaper do. The way I see it is this: Like Harry on his seven-year journey through Hogwarts, a fortune read through the tarot cards depends on luck and choice. The order in which the cards are revealed is dependent on luck, and the interpretation of the meanings of those cards is dependent on choice, on how you see one of each card's many related meanings fitting into the overall pattern. There are millions of my fellow Librans reading our shared horoscope every day: it’s the luck of the draw that something said there must apply to one or more of us. And if I see something in particular as applying to my life, it is only because I choose to see that.
Okay, enough of that. Here's the text for the first three tarot cards, as Mlle designated these three for discussion of HP Book One.
Book One Cards:
Harry Potter and the Philosopher's/Sorceror's Stone
0: The Fool
Meanings: Beginning of adventure. Enthusiasm. New opportunities beckon. Unlimited possibilities. Pleasure. Passion. Rashness. Obsession. Mania. Folly. Thoughtlessness. Lack of discipline. Immaturity. Frivolity. Delirium. Spontaneity. Levity. Unrestrained excess. Infatuation. Indiscretion. Tendency to start a project without carefully considering all the details. Reluctance to listen to advice.
At #0, the Fool is the card of infinite possibilities. The pack on the staff indicates that he has all he need to do or be anything he wants, he ha only to stop and unpack. He is on his way to a brand new beginning. But the card carries a little bark of warning as well. Stop daydreaming and watch your step, lest you fall and end up looking the fool.
1: The Magician
Meanings: Originality. Creativity. Imagination. Self-reliance. Skill. Will-power. Self-confidence. Dexterity. Ingenuity. Flexibility. Craft. Masterfulness. Self-control. Deception. Sleight of hand. Unity of thought and emotion. Determination to see a task through to completion.
At #1, the Magician is the male power of creation, creation by willpower and desire. In that ancient sense, it is the ability to make things so just by speaking them aloud ("And God said 'Let there be Light!' and there was Light"). Reflecting this is the fact that the Magician is represented by Mercury. He represents the gift of tongues, a smooth talker, a salesman. Also clever with the slight of hand (Mercury *was* the god of thieves!) and a medicine man - either a real doctor or someone trying to sell you snake oil. The 4 suits laid out before him remind us of the 4 aces, which in the Tarot symbolize the raw, undeveloped, undirected power of each suit. When the Magician appears, he lets you know that you have all you need to start creating whatever it is you want: a love life, money, career, solutions, anything.
2: The High Priestess
Meanings: Wisdom. Sound judgment. Knowledge. Learning. Serenity. Objectivity. Penetration. Education. Foresight. Intuition. Perception. Hidden emotion. Purity. Virtue. Apparent emotionlessness. Lack of patience. Platonic relationships. Teacher.
The High Priestess is the card of knowledge, instinctual, supernatural, secret knowledge. She holds scrolls of arcane information that she might, or might not, reveal to you. The moon crown on her head as well as the crescent by her foot indicates her willingness to illuminate what you otherwise might not see, reveal the secrets you need to know in order to make a decision about a problem or a job, an investment, love, career, family, etc.
And, finally, behind her is the curtain to the future; the pomegranates that decorate it remind us of Persephone, who was taken down into the land of the dead, ate its fruit, and became the only goddess allowed to travel to and from that strange land. Which indicates that when you get the High Priestess, you're going to be learning some very odd things. Very odd.
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Post by Mlle Bienvenu on Dec 12, 2004 10:13:05 GMT -5
Well, hello, Jung Lovers! (Sorry, just had to do that...) It's not any worse than my punny thread title :-P www.ata-tarot.com/resource/cards/ <-- good source of Tarot meanings, I wish I found this place earlier Added some brief summaries of the books above Oh, and also Lolua, I have to say that my HP Tarot is a bit different from the idea I'm proposing here. In my tarot's major arcana I was trying to find characters and/or situations which correspond with each of the cards, whereas here I am trying to match them by thematic elements. Some of them may end up overlapping but, it's a slightly different thing. :-) |
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Post by Lolua on Dec 12, 2004 13:04:31 GMT -5
Oh, and also Lolua, I have to say that my HP Tarot is a bit different from the idea I'm proposing here. In my tarot's major arcana I was trying to find characters and/or situations which correspond with each of the cards, whereas here I am trying to match them by thematic elements. Some of them may end up overlapping but, it's a slightly different thing. :-) As I am aware. Which is why I wrote: I'll let you work out how HP and the tarot both relate to Campbell, Jung, and Maslowe, but I'll be commenting and adding supplementary materials. For some reason I thought that was clearer than it seems to be this afternoon. I did not mean, as you appear to think I did, that I assumed you would be using this thread to defend the choices of artwork and meaning in your Harry Pottertarot deck.  All that I meant by my post concerning your and other HP tarot decks was to give an introduction to the tarot through Harry's journey, and to show that there are many meanings possible for one card. Much of that was preemptive on my part. By showing that the tarot system was meant to be interpretable in different ways, I hoped to curtail the whole "this is sooo arbitrary and almost completely meaningless!" argument which BB would almost certainly introduce here, as he did on the Writing Mechanics thread. However, since I appear to have caused more problems than I solved by my preemptive strike -- as history shows us is so often the case with preemptive strikes -- I do apologize for the misunderstanding. Please believe that I'm not a complete idiot, however much it may appear that I am. :-P |
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Post by Mlle Bienvenu on Dec 12, 2004 13:09:15 GMT -5
As I am aware. Which is why I wrote: For some reason I thought that was clearer than it seems to be this afternoon. I did not mean, as you appear to think I did, that I assumed you would be using this thread to defend the choices of artwork and meaning in your Harry Pottertarot deck. All that I meant by my post concerning your and other HP tarot decks was to give an introduction to the tarot through Harry's journey, and to show that there are many meanings possible for one card. Much of that was preemptive on my part. By showing that the tarot system was meant to be interpretable in different ways, I hoped to curtail the whole "this is sooo arbitrary and almost completely meaningless!" argument which BB would almost certainly introduce here, as he did on the Writing Mechanics thread. However, since I appear to have caused more problems than I solved by my preemptive strike -- as history shows us is so often the case with preemptive strikes -- I do apologize for the misunderstanding. Please believe that I'm not a complete idiot, however much it may appear that I am. :-P Wooo! Misinterpretation all around Yay! .... Sorry...I knew what you were doing, But I was just making double clear a thought I had while reading your post.... I didn't mean for it to sound accusitive.... : embarassed : Sorry about that.... I found your post very interesting, please continue if you so desire :-) Ooh, and it did occur to me that BB might decide to bring up the arbitrary arguement as well....LOL |
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Post by Mlle Bienvenu on Dec 12, 2004 18:59:11 GMT -5
I found this list on a website about campbell's hero's journey....felt like potterifying it really quick..... Oh, and this also might be helpful for your One class in the archetype academy. In his wonderful book, "The Hero With a Thousand Faces", the noted American mythology scholar Joseph Campbell defined the thirteen common elements of the hero's journey as: # Mysterious, unusual or miraculous circumstances of birth. - Harry is part of a prophecy # A sequestered or hidden childhood attended by surrogate parents. - Harry grew up at the Dursley's, away from magic. # A hidden or concealed identity known to only a few, sometimes only to one person. - harry didn't know he was a wizard until he was 11 # Education with a very old and very wise teacher. - Albus Dumbledore...nuff said. # The call to adventure or to a quest for identity and the realization that the hero or heroine has special duties or responsibilities in this world. - Harry finds out he's not only a wizard, but a famous one, and he also finds out later that he must fulfil a prophecy # Revelation of the nature of the hero or heroine's true identity and birthright and their special responsibilities. - The prophecy. # The discovery of personal virtues and strengths and usually at least one great weakness. - Love is his strength... and JKR has said something like his eyes are his weakness...or something...I can't remember... # The discovery and development of special powers which are unique to the hero or heroine. These are often gifts from the gods or other powerful beings whom the hero or heroine has assisted, and such gifts usually compensate for the weakness. - He is a Parcelmouth, and all the other powers garnered from defeating LV the first time. # An arduous physical or psychological journey fraught with trials, testings and temptation. - Do I really need to go into that? LOL # Ultimately the hero or heroine must rely on his or her own strength, wits and resources to emerge victorious. - Harry rarely has anyone with him in his encounters with LV # The journey ascends to a high spiritual plane and returns or descends into darkness and returns - Too early to tell, but with the Veil, it could definitely do something like this. # The journey leads to an incandescent transformation or to self realization. - I can definitely see this happening as well. # Something of great importance or lasting value is discovered or created.- Well, defeating LV is important...some people speculate an end to the housing system at hogwarts... # The hero or heroine conquers death or the fear of mortality and often ascends to become immortal. - Harry has already done this to some extent. www.geocities.com/kerrdelune/hero.html |
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Post by Lolua on Dec 13, 2004 19:08:11 GMT -5
Interesting, interesting... I'll be keeping Campbell's list in mind while I watch Legend of Earthsea tonight... I think Ged fits the pattern quite nicely. Anyway, I thought I'd put up the next batch of tarot info while I have the opportunity. Harry Potter Tarot Cards
Chosen Images, Part II| Card | Mlle's | LF's Old | LF's New | PadfootMK's | | 3. The Empress | Helga Hufflepuff | Molly Weasley | Molly Weasley (The Matriarch) | Mrs. Weasley | | 4. The Emperor | Godric Gryffindor | Lucius Malfoy | Lucius Malfoy (The Patriarch) | Percy Weasley | | 5. The Hierophant | Albus Dumbledore | Hermione Granger | Hermione Granger (The Scholar) | The Malfoys |
***** N. B. Strikethrough text ( like this) indicates that the image for the card has not been completed or does not seem to exist. Mlle Bienvenu's Tarot Deckmllebienvenu.deviantart.com/gallery/3. www.deviantart.com/deviation/6429399/4. www.deviantart.com/deviation/6429474/5. www.deviantart.com/deviation/6450118/Laura Freeman's Old Tarot Deckwww.nasubionna.net/hp/oldtarotb.html3. www.nasubionna.net/hp/tarot/empress.html4. www.nasubionna.net/hp/tarot/emperor.html5. www.nasubionna.net/hp/tarot/hierophant.htmlLaura Freeman's New Tarot Deckwww.nasubionna.net/tarot/4. www.nasubionna.net/tarot/patriarch.html5. www.nasubionna.net/tarot/scholar.htmlPadfootMK's Tarot Deck, Illustrated by Laura Freeman www.qaimlyn.com/padfootmk/tarot.htm4. www.qaimlyn.com/padfootmk/percy.jpg5. www.qaimlyn.com/padfootmk/MALFOYS.jpgAnd now, for the accompanying text: Book Two Cards:
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets3: The EmpressMeanings: Feminine progress. Action. Natural energy. Development. Fruitfulness. Accomplishment. Interest in day-to-day details. Mother. Sister. Wife. Marriage. Children. Feminine influence. Material wealth. Evolution. A leader. Decisions founded upon all the facts at hand. The motivator of a successful partner or husband. Businesswoman. The Empress is a creator, be it creation of life, of romance, of art or business. While the Magician is the primal spark, the idea made real, and the High Priestess is the one who gives the idea a form, the Empress is the womb where it gestates and grows till it is ready to be born. This is why her symbol is Venus, goddess of beautiful things as well as love. Even so, the Empress is more Demeter, goddess of abundance, than sensual Venus. She is the giver of Earthly gifts, yet at the same time, she can, in anger, withhold, as Demeter did when her daughter, Persephone, was kidnapped. In fury and grief, she kept the Earth barren until her child was returned to her. 4: The EmperorMeanings: Worldly power. Accomplishment. Confidence. Wealth. Stability. Authority. Indomitable spirit. Leadership. Maturity. Father. Brother. Husband. Male influence. Direct pressure. Conviction. Domination of intelligence and reason over emotion and passion. Attainment of goals. Achievement. Desire to increase domination in every direction. A capable person who is knowledgeable and competent. As Aries, the Ram, the Emperor naturally follows the pregnant Empress. Aries is the infant, the first sign of the Zodiac. Like an infant, he is filled with enthuiasm, energy, aggression. He is direct, guileless and all too often irresistible. Unfortunately, like a baby he can also be a tyrant. Impatient, demanding, controlling. In the best of circumstances, he signifies the leader that everyone wants to follow, sitting on a throne that indicates the solid foundation of an Empire he created, loves and rules with intelligence and enthusiasm. But that throne can also be a trap, a responsibility that has the Emperor feeling restless, bored and discontent. 5: The HierophantMeanings: Mercy. Kindness. Goodness. Forgiveness. Inspiration. Compassion. Servitude. Overt reserve. Captivity to one's own ideas. Tendency to cling to ideas and principles even if outdated. A person to whom one has recourse. Conformity. A religious or spiritual leader. A person with a sense of historical importance. Taurus the Earthly bull may seem an odd sign for a holy man, but it makes sense if you understand that the Hierophant's purpose is to bring the spiritual down to Earth. Where the High Priestess between her two pillars deals with realms beyond this Earth, the Hierophant (or High Priest) deals with worldly problems. He is well suited to do this because, like all Taureans, he strives to create harmony and peace in the midst of a crisis. The Hierophant's only problem is that, like the Bull, he can be stubborn and hidebound. At his best, he is wise and soothing, at his worst, he is an unbending traditionalist. |
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Post by Mlle Bienvenu on Dec 13, 2004 22:20:08 GMT -5
Book One - The book of Beginings and possibilities, the magical world is still magical for Harry.
The Fool - Beginings
The Magician - Potential being moulded, the meeting of opposites
The High Priestess - Potential
Book Two -this is the book in which we examine bloodlines to an extent, we first learn the word 'mudblood' and squib, and pureblood, and also learn of the Heir of Slytherin
The Empress - the mother archetype
The Emperor - The Father archetype
The Hierophant - the propigation of tradition, Belief,
Book Three This is the book we learn about the marauders friendship, we hear in greater detail about lily's blood sacrifice and also the secret-keeping charm. We also learn of the Patronus Charm and Dementers.
The Lovers (I prefer Love, rather than Lovers myself, I find it's got less connotations of ... worldlyness to it and can be taken to mean a broader variety of things) - relationships (not neccearily romantic)
The Chariot - emotions, and emotional discipline "the power of the mind to shape the desires of the heart and direct them to meaningful expression. "
Strength - courage and patience, fortitude
Book Four - a book about justice (crouch Sr and what he does, Snape's DE'ness In this book we are introduced to both DE's and Aurors. etc) abouth things you can't have anticipated (The triwizard cup's portkeyness, and Cedric's death)
The Hermit - learning about oneself, waiting for life's lessons, a teacher image
Wheel of Fortune - the things you can't control in life, Fate, destiny, cycles
Justice - justice, cause and effect, karma, deeds done in the past coming back to bite you
Book Five - A book about waiting, about controlling your emotions and of course about death (with Sirius and all, and the death room), Occlumency lessons, legilimency and the prophecy
The Hanged Man - Odin hanging for nine days to gain the knowledge of runes, waiting for knowledge, allow things to happen, willing vulnerability, aParadox, look at something another way
Death - death, change, transformation
Temperance - moderation, balance, purification, "the coming together of two distinct beings that must function as one" (refers to friendships, partnerships, commitees, evil dark lords tied to teenage heros through curse scars....)
Book six - JKR said we were getting a new minister, I'd say this would be the book to do it in, as the Tower representss established ideas being turned on their ear. In my Tarot deck, I'm going to represent this card as the ruined Fountain of Magical Bretherin. (unless, of course, book six gives me better examples)
The Devil- enslavement to the worldly, the dark side of the personality, "a force that attacks from within"
The Tower - shattering of old ideals, rules, and creating new ones,
The Star - hope, faith
Book Seven - The book of final reckoning, I suppose the moon and the sun...opposites and a final judgement or sorting out, I guess.
The Moon - deception, misinterpretation, imagination, uncertain destination, travelling in the dark, intuition, subconcious
The Sun - Illumination, end of war into peace, hatred replaced with love, fear with courage, clarity
Judgement - "There is rebirth not through discarding negativity, but through integration of all parts of the self. ", day of reckoning, reconcilliation between the parts of one's consciousness, non-destructive change
The World - Completion of the cycle, rest,
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Post by Mlle Bienvenu on Dec 13, 2004 22:22:06 GMT -5
Interesting, interesting... I'll be keeping Campbell's list in mind while I watch Legend of Earthsea tonight... I think Ged fits the pattern quite nicely. OH was that tonight!? Gah...Missed it! I like your addition, BTW....much better than my paltry, one line descriptions....hehe |
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Post by Mlle Bienvenu on Dec 14, 2004 23:19:04 GMT -5
Well, hello, Jung Lovers! (Sorry, just had to do that...) You know, I think I wouldn't mind a T-Shirt that says that.... musicals and Jung.... does it get any better? LOL ;D ;D ;D |
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Anyway, food for thought... if you know the meanings, or can look them up yourself, you'll probably see where I was going with this....like I said, I'll add stuff later on when I need another break :-)
I'll let you work out how HP and the tarot both relate to Campbell, Jung, and Maslowe, but I'll be commenting and adding supplementary materials. To start us off, I'll link to some HP Tarot Deck illustrations (including yours) and discuss some of the problems inherent in that direct relationship. Then I'll try to keep you supplied with the texts you had sent to me on tarot meanings, in case you or anyone else wanted to use them as a basis for interpretation. 
All that I meant by my post concerning your and other HP tarot decks was to give an introduction to the tarot through Harry's journey, and to show that there are many meanings possible for one card.