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Post by Mlle Bienvenu on Jul 10, 2004 16:51:02 GMT -5
Not really sure where to put this.... been working on it during breaks at work... this is a list of things I notice JKR doing in the Harry Potter series in regards to writing, plot development, etc. Most are obvious, but I thought it'd be nice to collate them in one place. Feel free to add your own... - Nearly everything is important in some way, or serves to reflect or highlight something important.(okay...so Mark Evans is a nobody, but people such as Figgy and objects like the Mimbulous Mimbletonia will probably become important.)
- Hide things in plain sight. (Dumbledore's Chocolate Frog Card for example)
- Objects have multiple functions or may be used in a way not readily apparent. (such as the moving pictures as communication devices and the eyes and ears of Dumbledore... also can be abstract, like the way Snape always treated Harry and Neville...now we have a pretty good idea that it probably has something to do with the prophecy.)
- Create at least 2 situations to introduce a concept/device etc. The first situation is used to get used to the idea, and the second situation is highly relevant to plot. (Time Turner- Hermione used it to get to classes, but it was later used to save Buckbeak and Sirius. The relation between Quidditch and the Key Room in PS/SS.)
- Appearances can be decieving. (this one's pretty obvious, Snape as bad guy in PS/SS, Fake!Moody etc...)
- Not everyone tells the truth... (like most of the bad guys :-P)
- Not everyone knows the truth... (like Harry most of the time)
- Not everyone is acting upon complete information (again, like Harry, most of the time)
- Not everyone believes the truth. (Fudge, obviously)
- Everyone must have a goal born upon their own experiances, wants and situation (sort of a standard writing tip, but importan anyway)
- Create patterns
- Parallel often
- Create many foils
- Create your own symbolsim.
- Sometimes its fun to tell the reader what is coming/happening in a symbolic way. (Ron's Predictions, the tasks in PS/SS as a map to the books, etc... and possibly the Triwizard Tasks...
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Post by Lolua on Jul 11, 2004 3:49:58 GMT -5
Sometimes its fun to tell the reader what is coming/happening in a symbolic way. (Ron's Predictions, the tasks in PS/SS as a map to the books, etc... and possibly the Triwizard Tasks... Great observations, Mlle! There's a lot in your post that I want to cover, but it may take more than one post, so let's start with the tasks in PS/SS. As I understand Mlle's reasoning, there are certain resonances of each of these tasks in the books with corresponding numbers: - 1. Fluffy - Hagrid, gamekeeper
Hagrid brings Harry from the Muggle world into the wizarding world, gives important clues about Nicholas Flamel and the identity of that "grubby little package" from the Gringotts vault
- 2. Devil's Snare - Sprout, Herbology
Mandrake root important to reviving/curing those who had been petrified
- 3. Charmed keys - Flitwick, Charms
Flitwick explains the Fidelius Charm in the 3 Broomsticks, importance of Fidelius Charm and Secret Keeper
- 4. Life-size wizard chess - McGongall, Transfiguration
For this, I can only present the parallel chess game in GoF, loaded with meaning for the end of the book:
If Harry and Cedric are the pawns, you can probably guess who the bishop is.
- 5. The troll - Quirrell, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Umbridge (then DADA) sent the dementors after Harry; Harry is possessed by Voldemort as Quirrell was.
- 6. Potions riddle - Snape, Potions
Well, we both think Snape's the key to book 6, anyway, so here's more wonderful circumstantial evidence. ;D
- 7. Mirror of Erised - Dumbledore, Headmaster
This could be evidence that Dumbledore will survive through to book 7. Or, perhaps, like Obi-Wan Kenobi, his legacy will live on in a Mirror-of-Erised-like way.
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Post by Mlle Bienvenu on Jul 11, 2004 3:55:21 GMT -5
Maybe to help you out a bit....for some strange reason, I have equated visually in my mind the Mirror of Erised and The Veil.... I think because of what Harry saw int he mirror in book one, and the voices he hears from 'beyond the veil' all through the series...
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Post by Big Brother on Jul 11, 2004 5:01:33 GMT -5
- 1. Fluffy - Hagrid, gamekeeper
Hagrid brings Harry from the Muggle world into the wizarding world, gives important clues about Nicholas Flamel and the identity of that "grubby little package" from the Gringotts vault
The problem is, each of these could be a key to any of the books. Hargrid is indeed important in Book 1. He's also important in Book 2, as he's the one who tells them how to get to Aragog, and who was a key suspect as to the opener of the Chamber. He's also important to Book 3, what with the whole Buckbeak sub-plot. He's also key to book 4, giving Harry multiple clues as to how to beat key Triwizard Tasks. And, if I had finished re-reading Book 5, I could probably come up with a key as to how he and his big-creatures fascination is important to that book, too. [/li][li]2. Devil's Snare - Sprout, Herbology Mandrake root important to reviving/curing those who had been petrified[/quote] And Gillyweed is important to the Triwizard task in book four. Your point? [/li][li]3. Charmed keys - Flitwick, Charms Flitwick explains the Fidelius Charm in the 3 Broomsticks, importance of Fidelius Charm and Secret Keeper[/quote] Charms of various kinds are key (pun intended) in every honkin' book. Flitwick is mainly a non-entity, however. [/li][li]4. Life-size wizard chess - McGongall, Transfiguration For this, I can only present the parallel chess game in GoF, loaded with meaning for the end of the book: (book quote snipped for space) If Harry and Cedric are the pawns, you can probably guess who the bishop is. [/quote] Or the colossal game of chess that is the endless political maneuvering that the Order carries out in Book 5 while awaiting the public return of Voldemort. Or the probable clashes of armies in the books to come. [/li][li]5. The troll - Quirrell, Defense Against the Dark Arts Umbridge (then DADA) sent the dementors after Harry; Harry is possessed by Voldemort as Quirrell was.[/quote] Hell, the DADA-teacher-of-the-week is hideously important in every book so far! If this had been the fourth task, you would have said, "Obviously, it prefigures the importance of DADA instructor Fake-Moody, who delivered Harry to Voldemort at the end of the Triwizard Tournament. If it had been the second task, you would have pointed out that Quirrell was possessed by Voldemort, as Ginny was. [/li][li]6. Potions riddle - Snape, Potions Well, we both think Snape's the key to book 6, anyway, so here's more wonderful circumstantial evidence. ;D[/quote] Snape's important in the other books as well. He's almost overused as the straw-man distraction villain. [/li][li]7. Mirror of Erised - Dumbledore, Headmaster This could be evidence that Dumbledore will survive through to book 7. Or, perhaps, like Obi-Wan Kenobi, his legacy will live on in a Mirror-of-Erised-like way. [/li][/ul] [/quote] Dumbledore is also hideously important to every one of the books. Each of these could be used as symbolism for pretty much any of the books. Or it could just mean that JKR had played MYST a few too many times, as each of these tasks is strongly reminiscient of the kind of silly puzzles found in that genre of computer game. |
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Post by Lolua on Jul 11, 2004 13:16:18 GMT -5
The problem is, each of these could be a key to any of the books. Martin, the point is that we're looking at central struggles here, the stuff resolved and explained in the denoument. The key figures who, if you are watching their activities (despite all the red herrings and reasons not to) during the book, you might have figured out what was really going on. Book 1: Why was someone trying to steal the package Hagrid took from the Gringotts vault? Quirrell was taking it for Voldemort. - Why he should have been obvious: Harry saw him going into the forest, he was talking to someone alone in a room, his turban smelled evil, Harry's scar hurt when he looked past the turban at Snape, Hermione knocked him over when she went to set Snape's robes aflame, Hagrid told us to trust Snape, Quirrell was in the Leaky Cauldron the day the vault at Gringotts was broken into... - Red herrings and reasons not to look at Quirrell: Snape's whole demeanor screams, "I'm evil!" It's clear that he hates Harry -- enough, it was presumed, to try to kill him even without the incentive of the Stone. Billowing black robes on the dark figure in the forest. Also, people have seen Die Hard and are used to Rickman the Villain.  Book 2: Who had opened the Chamber of Secrets and what petrified those people? Ginny Weasley with the basilisk, at the behest of Tom Riddle. - Why she should have been obvious: Ginny made the Weasleys return to the Burrow for her diary, she was frightened when she saw Harry had the diary, no one but a Gryffindor could have ransacked Harry's dorm looking for it, the diary was found in a girls' bathroom, she was found sneaking around the henhouse by Hagrid, Ginny acted funny all year... - Red herrings and reasons not to look too closely: Little red-haired girls can't be evil, can they? And Tom Riddle played the "I'm like you, Harry!" card so very well that Harry didn't see the diary's owner as a possible suspect. We didn't know Ginny well enough to tell if she was acting funny (but we did - Ron said she "didn't stop talking" about Harry all summer, and she certainly seemed talkative and whatnot in the train station in book 1). Book 3: Why was Sirius after Harry? He wasn't after Harry, he was after Peter Pettigrew in the form of Scabbers. - Why that should have been obvious: Scabbers looked ill before he ever met Crookshanks, he'd lived far too long for an ordinary rat (as the woman in the Magical Menagerie tried to tell us), Sirius asked Fudge for his newspaper when a photo of the Weasleys in Egypt had been in it, Scabbers was observed (also by the helpful witch in the MM) to be missing a toe, the rat tonic didn't seem to help, Sirius slashed Ron's bed-hangings and not Harry's... - Red herrings and reasons not to look at Scabbers: No one ever questions that Sirius was the Secret-Keeper or that he was Voldemort's main man and wanted to kill Harry, so why should we? Scabbers had never done anything suspicious or bad to Harry until this point, and he'd even bitten Goyle. If Perfect Prefect Percy hadn't noticed anything wrong with his pet, then there was nothing to worry about. Cats chase and eat rats all the time. The connection with Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs isn't made clear until we already know the truth. Book 4: Who cast the Dark Mark at the World Cup, and who entered Harry in the Triwizard Tournament to kill him? The fake Mad-Eye Moody, really Barty Crouch, Jr. - Why he should have been obvious: The fake Moody tells us, right after Harry's name came out of the goblet, exactly how the deed was done. But, since it's from the mouth of Mad-Eye Moody, no one listens. Pity. Moody only drinks from his own flask. Potions ingredients for Polyjuice are stolen from Snape's stores, dredging up Harry's memories of CoS. The man says he's only teaching for a year -- and is quite suspicious about the way he covers his mistake. Karkaroff's stool-pigeon moment in the Pensieve tells us how much he probably cares about ridding the world of Harry Potter. - Red herrings and reasons not to look: He's nice to Neville. He covers for Harry to keep him out of trouble. He goes drinking with Hagrid. Can't be a bad guy, right? He doesn't even have to lie when, as Moody, he says the thing he hates most is a Death Eater who walked free. Book 5: Why did the dementors come after Harry, and what was behind the closed door in Harry's dream? Here's where things get tricky. As the plots complicate, there's a doubling of keys (though you could argue the same complexity for CoS and I'd not complain too much). The answers, of course, are Umbridge and the record of the Prophecy. Umbridge's key-ness is a bit like the secondary key to book 4: who cast the Dark Mark at the Quidditch World Cup? We discover the answer to something that's been bugging us since early in the book almost by accident, while our eyes are on the prize of the primary key -- so much so that we might forget this answer. *hem hems at Big Brother* - Why this should have been obvious: Hermione was pretty much on-the-money with the "saving people thing" speech, especially the comparison between Tom's ruse in the Chamber of Secrets and Harry's visions of Sirius languishing in the Ministry of Magic as Voldemort's prisoner. Always listen to Hermione -- I don't think she's really been completely wrong since book 1. Umbridge even tells us during Harry's hearing that "it sounded for a teensy moment as though you were suggesting that the Ministry of Magic had ordered an attack on this boy!" Rather Crouch-ish of her, don't you think? Also... dude, how's Voldemort going to stroll into the Ministry of Magic in the middle of the afternoon (during the History of Magic O.W.L.) with the most wanted man in the wizarding world in shackles, and not draw attention to himself? - Red herrings and reasons not to look: I don't think anyone believed she was a sweet old maiden aunt-figure beyond Chapter 12, so I won't sport with your intelligence by discussing the innocence of her Alice band. Sirius says she's not a Death Eater, so she must just be misguided -- but clearly not that misguided. And the dementors leave Azkaban, anyway, so Voldemort must have sent them to attack Harry before. As for the prophecy... there's a lot in the other books, like the PoA prediction being Trelawney's second real prophecy. The idea of the thing in the MoM being a "weapon, something he didn't have before" is such a nice idea... too bad we forgot about it as soon as we, like Harry, thought Padfoot was in trouble. And how were we to know that the Ministry even kept records of prophecies, anyway? Book 6: I believe the keys are going to be Snape (primary) and Karkaroff (secondary). We're going to find out a lot more about Snape, and possibly about the founders and the origins/mission of Slytherin House. - Why do I think this? Number of reasons. 1) In the nifty little parallel-keys theory I've set up, 6 has the same slot in the cycle as 3. As Pettigrew the traitor was the key to 3, so will Snape and Karkaroff the traitors be key to 6. (Might be Percy instead of Karkaroff, come to think of it... hmm...) Also, the relationship between Harry and Snape is at an all-time low since Harry blames Snape for Sirius's death. I had great hopes for a reconciliation after Snape attempted to conduct himself like an adult at the end of GoF, but... alas, it was not to be. Harry feels sorry for Snape now: he's been in his shoes, he knows his dad wasn't a perfect person. To move on, Harry needs to get that sympathy to work for him rather than against him. Something drastic's got to happen to get those two playing on the same team again -- a truce or a "lack of open hostility" might even be reached by the end of the book, but to get there, something's gotta change. Maybe someone important to both of them will die. *hums a bumblebee-ish dirge* | 1 | Quirrell | |*| | 4 | "fake Moody" | Barty Jr | | 2 | Ginny | |*| | 5 | Prophecy | Umbridge | | 3 | Wormtail | |*| | 6 | Snape | Karkaroff/Percy |
Book 7: That's anyone's guess. Harry might be too busy trying to figure out how to defeat Voldemort to worry about anything else. |
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Post by Mlle Bienvenu on Jul 11, 2004 21:52:09 GMT -5
Here's my interpretation of the meaning of the seven tasks in PS. I think you're just about on target here... but I think the important element to fluffy and Hagrid is the guardian/gatekeeper aspect of them. Cerberus guarded the gates of the underworld, as fluffy guards the next six tasks. Hagrid is the one to bring Harry from the muggle world, as you said, he's the guardian, in harry's point of view, to the wizard world. I think the fact that Hagrid is the first wizard Harry meets and that he's the one to take the first years across the lake (a Styx reference?) seems to be saying something. [/li][li]2. Devil's Snare - Sprout, Herbology Mandrake root important to reviving/curing those who had been petrified [/quote] The Devil's Snare task. The point here, I think is that the kids used knowledge from their studies to get past this hurdle. In book two, of course, the Mandrak draft relates, but also the polyjuice potion and how Hermione figured out the what the Basilisk was. all have to do with applying learned knowledge. [/li][li]3. Charmed keys - Flitwick, Charms Flitwick explains the Fidelius Charm in the 3 Broomsticks, importance of Fidelius Charm and Secret Keeper [/quote] The trick here, is to catch the 'snitchlike key'. Peter Pettigrew is both a key to the 3 book and a snitch in the worst sense. This also, of course relates to the Fidelius Charm, as Peter was the Secret-keeper. [/li][li]4. Life-size wizard chess - McGongall, Transfiguration For this, I can only present the parallel chess game in GoF, loaded with meaning for the end of the book: If Harry and Cedric are the pawns, you can probably guess who the bishop is. [/quote] As the book where Voldemort is reborn, I'd say this is where the proverbial chess game begins...(and if you hold to the Chess/Dumbledore theory... LOL) [/li][li]5. The troll - Quirrell, Defense Against the Dark Arts Umbridge (then DADA) sent the dementors after Harry; Harry is possessed by Voldemort as Quirrell was. [/quote] I think you're on the right on the money about the possesion here. I think it's important that the troll was already dealt with, but I can't seem to figure out what that might mean. [/li][li]6. Potions riddle - Snape, Potions Well, we both think Snape's the key to book 6, anyway, so here's more wonderful circumstantial evidence. ;D [/quote] The important thing here is that the point of the riddle is to find which bottle does what... In my theory about the sixth book, the point will be to find who does what, or who is on which side. (DD's or LV's) [/li][li]7. Mirror of Erised - Dumbledore, Headmaster This could be evidence that Dumbledore will survive through to book 7. Or, perhaps, like Obi-Wan Kenobi, his legacy will live on in a Mirror-of-Erised-like way. [/li][/ul][/quote] Finally the Mirror of Erised, that shows what we desire. Again I'd like to mention I, for some very strange reason, equate the Mirror of Erised, with the The Veil... not sure exactly why.... but .... I dont' know.....  I think the voldemort-harry-dumbldore triangle is important to the last book as well. And the fact that he sees his parent's in the mirror... i mean obviously we'll have found out what really happened that night... The Philosopher's Stone. I don't know if anyone buys the LivingStone!Harry theory... but it seems to fit in with this.... also, perhaps the fact that the bad guy is a surprise to harry (it being Quirrel!Mort and not Snape) might play in somehow? |
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Post by Lolua on Jul 11, 2004 23:25:49 GMT -5
Hagrid is indeed important in Book 1. He's also important in Book 2, as he's the one who tells them how to get to Aragog, and who was a key suspect as to the opener of the Chamber. This actually does relate to the main plot of Chamber of Secrets, and is your best point in this paragraph. Hagrid is the more involved in the main plots of the first two books than in the others, so your point is arguable in this particular instance. Between Hermione's note, Aragog's remark about the last victim's death, and their encounters with Moaning Myrtle, the boys are able to solve the mystery. Note: The word " sub-plot". That's not the main plot of the book, and therefore not what we're assuming these tasks would be related to symbolically and iconographically for each book. If we included sub-plots and every little thing that happened in the books, we'd never be able to make any meaningful connections at all, whether inside or outside this theory. And I think JKR means for us to make them at least part of the time that we do, or she wouldn't keep saying there were hints to what was yet to come in the material already published. The impostor Moody, as we learn, is the instigator behind the single whopper of a clue that Hagrid gives Harry when he leads him to the dragons. He's even with Hagrid in the Three Broomsticks when Hagrid tells Harry (under the I-Cloak and seen only by Moody's magical eye) to meet him for their unauthorized tour of the dragon paddock. Hagrid doesn't give Harry any clues about the other tasks, unless you count teaching him how to care for the Skrewts in CoMC class as preparation for the third task. The example you're looking for is that Hagrid's pet project, his half-brother Grawp, pulled a gigantus ex machina to save Harry and Hermione from the centaurs's unfriendly attentions in the forest. And, of course, his thestrals carry the core of the DA to the Ministry to "save Sirius" (I see "saving Sirius" becoming a Potter idiom in the near future, like "a Flint"...). But again... Hagrid isn't really key. Hagrid is long gone by the time Grawp chases off the centaurs and the DA members mount up for their quest to the Ministry. [/li][li]2. Devil's Snare - Sprout, Herbology Mandrake root important to reviving/curing those who had been petrified[/quote] And Gillyweed is important to the Triwizard task in book four. Your point? Gillyweed is not really associated with Professor Sprout. Its only association with the subject of Herbology is by way of the book the fake Moody gives to Neville, Magical Water Plants of the Mediterranean , because he had heard from Professor Sprout that Neville was good at Herbology. Of course, the whole thing is a plot to plant (pun intended) the answer to the Second Task in Harry's dormitory, even before Harry's name comes out of the goblet. Primarily, the gillyweed is associated with Snape rather than Sprout. It is removed from his stores of Potions ingredients, and becomes a source of tension (haha, like they need any more of those) and suspicion between Harry and Snape. Dobby the House-Elf knows, without reading Neville's book (his spelling in OotP suggests Dobby isn't the most attentive of readers, and I don't imagine that the Malfoys encouraged literacy in their house-elves, anyway), that the gillyweed will be found in Snape's stores instead of in Sprout's greenhouse. The Devil's Snare task. The point here, I think is that the kids used knowledge from their studies to get past this hurdle. In book two, of course, the Mandrak draft relates, but also the polyjuice potion and how Hermione figured out the what the Basilisk was. all have to do with applying learned knowledge. I'd like to add that Harry gets caught in a non-botanical "devil's snare" in the second book: Tom Riddle successfully lures him down into the Chamber. Not to mention that the creeping vines of Devil's Snare are rather snakelike, twisting around arms and legs like the stone snakes in the Chamber carved around the pillars. (This comparison was prompted by my mother's exclamation of "Snakes, why does it always have to be snakes?" when the Trio fell through the trapdoor onto the Devil's Snare at the end of today's showing on cable of the Sorceror's Stone movie.) Charms of various kinds are key (pun intended) in every honkin' book. Flitwick is mainly a non-entity, however. There isn't a charm (at least not a named, practiced one) involved in the main plot of CoS, where the only wizard-magic is plain old Parseltongue and the soul-sucking diary. Nor in OotP: " Expecto Patronum!" is old news by then, as are the spells the DA uses to fight the Death Eaters. You could argue that Lily's protection of Harry -- the reason he could insta-crisp Quirrell-mort in book 1-- was a kind of charm (I have on occasion referred to it as a Love Charm), but it's not something you'd learn from Flitwick. It's Deep Magic, to borrow a phrase from Aslan, and you might call it Deeper Magic, because Voldemort forgot all about it like the White Witch does in C.S. Lewis's The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. The fake Moody's practicing of the Avada Kedavra Killing Curse might be huge clue to his ill intentions, but is a Dark Arts Curse, not a charm. The other thing that connects Flitwick's Charms solely to the Fidelius Charm in PoA? Lily's wand. It is my belief that she was the one who performed the Fidelius Charm. It wasn't Dumbledore, or he would have known that Peter was the Secret Keeper in Sirius's place. Ollivander tells us in book 1 that James's wand was good for Transfiguration, and Lily's was good for Charms. I think we find out what they used them for in PoA: James was an Animagus, a feat of Transfiguration, and Lily was so good at Charms that she could perform the advanced and powerful Fidelius Charm. Flitwick may be a non-entity most of the time, but I'm fairly certain that his paragraph-long spiel in PoA about the Fidelius Charm is his longest single speech in the books. It seems to be his sole purpose for being in the Three Broomsticks with the other teachers that day: he says little else to McGonagall, Fudge, Rosmerta, and Hagrid, who are all rather chatty, besides that important explanation. |
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Post by Big Brother on Jul 12, 2004 5:47:17 GMT -5
Oh, I'm not really arguing with the idea that JKR puts these kinds of clues into her story. Like Babylon 5, she's working from an outline finalized long before the first book was published, so she CAN and probably DOES bury clues in the early bits.
But, my love of B5 and HP aside, one of my pet peeves is people who overanalyze literary materials looking for hidden symbolism, and even worse, authors who play around with such matters. Real life does not have hidden symbolism, or foreshadowing, or follow the standardized conflict/climax story arc. Real life is both random and internally self-consistent. And I greatly prefer my fiction to be realistic than pure fantasy. So, when I write, the weather outside never has anything to do with the inner emotional state of the characters: weather fronts don't give a crap how one person's love life is going. One of my characters may feel depressed because it's overcast outside, but the sky never pours down rain because a character is crying.
So, as amusing as the apparent correspondence between the order of potion bottles in Snape's stage of the Stone-protecting pathway is, why on Earth would Snape choose ingredients so as to map out the next seven years of Harry's life?
On top of that, the entire series of traps guarding the stone is utterly ludicrous, and Snape's stage is the dumbest of all. I mean, a childish logic puzzle? ANYONE WITH TWO BRAIN CELLS TO RUB TOGETHER (not to mention two brains, like Quirdemort) could figure that out. If you MUST have a potion to get through a wall of flame, have a whole wall of unlabled bottles, no clues written down, and simply have Dumbledore TELL anyone he wants to give access to the Stone "drink the third bottle from the left on the second shelf from the bottm" or somesuch. Heck, you don't think a powerful wizard like Voldy (or any of his DE's) won't know some sort of spell that's the equivalent of the old NetHack "Scroll of Identify"? You know, a spell that reveals what sort of potion is in an unlabeled bottle. Or, heck, simply know a spell that would let them walk through flames?
Either Snape (and/or Dumbledore) is a complete moron, he wasn't trying particularly hard to guard the stone, or it's just plain bad writing based on one too many games of MYST. If JKR is also consciously and intentionally loading up the tasks with silly and pointless symbolism, it's not only bad writing, it's pretentiously bad writing.
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Post by Lorpius Prime on Jul 12, 2004 12:16:47 GMT -5
On top of that, the entire series of traps guarding the stone is utterly ludicrous, and Snape's stage is the dumbest of all. I mean, a childish logic puzzle? ANYONE WITH TWO BRAIN CELLS TO RUB TOGETHER (not to mention two brains, like Quirdemort) could figure that out.  To this day I haven't been able to figure that one out... |
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Post by Big Brother on Jul 12, 2004 14:22:49 GMT -5
I always sucked at those puzzles when we did them in school, and I figured it out on the first try in about 30 seconds. It's nothing compared to the logic squares we used to do in Mr. Heller's class (remember those, Lolua?) or even the logic-squares puzzles that Deety and Zeb trade with Mr. Dodgson (better known as Lewis Carroll himself) in Heinlein's novel "The Number of the Beast". Never figured out any of those.
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Post by Mlle Bienvenu on Jul 13, 2004 2:19:53 GMT -5
Oh, I'm not really arguing with the idea that JKR puts these kinds of clues into her story. Like Babylon 5, she's working from an outline finalized long before the first book was published, so she CAN and probably DOES bury clues in the early bits. But, my love of B5 and HP aside, one of my pet peeves is people who overanalyze literary materials looking for hidden symbolism, and even worse, authors who play around with such matters. Real life does not have hidden symbolism, or foreshadowing, or follow the standardized conflict/climax story arc. Real life is both random and internally self-consistent. And I greatly prefer my fiction to be realistic than pure fantasy. So, when I write, the weather outside never has anything to do with the inner emotional state of the characters: weather fronts don't give a crap how one person's love life is going. One of my characters may feel depressed because it's overcast outside, but the sky never pours down rain because a character is crying. Ach! You've wounded me to the heart... I am slain!  . I believe Lolua had a signature on Raven's board I rather liked that illustrates my feelings on the subject nicely. It said "The difference between real life and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." Fiction is an art. The whole point of art is the symbol. everything from an advertisment to 'War and Peace' to Tom Clancy is inundated with symbol. That best seller you pick up contains symbol, in fact, in most cases, that would be a major reason it's a best seller Steriotypes? A form of symbolism. Heck, even the words the author uses are a form of symbolism. As far as the rising action/ climax / falling action sequence of storytelling... I must say that all good stories (again overlooking absurdism, there are certain forms of writing and other art that deliberately avoids any semblance of 'standard' writing practices... Waiting for Godot... for one... ) follow this pattern to some extent. "He went to the store to pick up a loaf of bread." <-- is not a story, but "He went to the store to pick up a loaf of bread, but when he got there, the store was closed. He had no bread for supper that night." is a story. It's just not a story if nothing happens. (All that aside, If you're talking about modernism... in which the order of events is not so important.... for instance...the story might start off at the climax, back up a bit and tell everything that lead up to that point, then have the denoument. For instance, the Butter Battle does this...as does the Lorax....don't know why Suess books popped into my head for examples...LOL) But still, although the book doesn't follow linear time, I'd say the action still does... Name me one book that isn't absurdism that doesn't follow rising action climax denoument. For that matter, name me one book that doesn't contain symbolism....to be honest, I would be very interested to see if there was a book without symbolism, I think it's impossible....but....I'd be interested in being proven wrong on both counts... It's not Snape who'ed choose potions to map out the next seven years, it's JKR action through Snape... Within the story world, of course Snape wouldn't have that kind of knowledge, that would be absurd. It's more of JKR's way of communicating through the character of Snape to us readers. Hehe...scroll of Identify.....hehe....sorry Do you know how difficult it is to create symbolism? To have the skill to weave it into a tapestry, and still make a story that has any semblance of real life sense? It's monstrously difficult. And the layer upon layer of symbolism JKR (may or may not) have written is astounding to me.... I only wish I could write layers of symbolism like that...and still make sense on so many levels. I've probably missed about ten other points I wanted to make.... Sorry if it sounds like a flame...I'm not flaming you... I understand where you're coming from....you're a realist.... But I'm just trying to convey where I'm coming from...I can't help it... it's my EPS flaring up again. (English Professor Syndrome). That, and you've hit upon one of the few raw nerves I've got.... I'm endlessly fascinated by symbolism of all kinds.... the writings of Joseph Campbell, Robert Graves, Jung, Freud and Lacan fascinate me... soo...yeah....LOL |
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Post by Lorpius Prime on Jul 13, 2004 16:08:52 GMT -5
Name me one book that isn't absurdism that doesn't follow rising action climax denoument. For that matter, name me one book that doesn't contain symbolism....to be honest, I would be very interested to see if there was a book without symbolism, I think it's impossible....but....I'd be interested in being proven wrong on both counts... Well, the sub-plot of Tom Clancy's Without Remorse doesn't follow that pattern, though that's only half a book. I'm sure there's a whole one like it somewhere... |
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Post by Severus Snape on Jul 15, 2004 3:58:11 GMT -5
So, as amusing as the apparent correspondence between the order of potion bottles in Snape's stage of the Stone-protecting pathway is, why on Earth would Snape choose ingredients so as to map out the next seven years of Harry's life? Why, indeed? I should be very curious to know that myself. Nothing Potter will do or has done to waste his time at Hogwarts could be important enough to garner the attention of a man such as myself. |
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Post by Big Brother on Jul 15, 2004 8:53:52 GMT -5
Nice Avatar, Sev. I too am a fan of Robert Smith of "The Cure".
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Post by Severus Snape on Jul 15, 2004 17:17:13 GMT -5
I'm taking ten points from Ravenclaw for that remark, and another ten for being horrendously off-topic, Mr. Big Brother.
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To this day I haven't been able to figure that one out...
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